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Perhaps the name Gottman rings a bell.
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JULIE:It’s been a mess.
I think the 2024 election is also creating anxiety.
People aren’t sure what to do with their work, with their jobs.
It feels that way to me with my clients and the people that I know.
People are really thinking, Do I really want to do this for my whole life?
And what are the alternatives?
Can you explain what that really means?
JOHN:In our research, we identified the major issues that couples fight about.
First we observed couples in our lab, and then we recorded them in their homes.
That seemed to be the underlying issue of most argumentsa turning away.
In our research, we saw that many people were thinking more about their benefit than their partners benefit.
In fact, they werent even considering their partner.
So fights were turning into a win-lose battlea zero-sum game, as they call itwhich does not work.
What’s going to be best for both of usmaybe even more so for my partner than me?
How do you see this tension playing out with couples today, especially within the context of gender?
We had to fight for our own rights.
The pendulum had to shift from women being conditioned to serve everybody else from the moment theyre born.
As a result, that necessitated a focus more on yourself than somebody else.
So of course, women werent supposed to haveanger.
Men could have anger, but not women.
Anger is usually about facing an obstruction in your path or feeling injustice.
JOHN:Other approaches to couples therapy really downplay womens anger.
They say, Don’t be angry.
Behind your anger is fear and insecurity.
Talk about the more vulnerable emotions.
Don’t talk about injustice in the relationship, don’t talk about your goals being blocked by something.
Convert anger into a softer emotion.
I thought that was hilarious, because it’s like, Happy wife, happy life.
JOHN:That’s right.
And it works both ways.
Because if a woman doesnt accept influence, the conflict deteriorates to a zero-sum game.
Its destructive not only for the relationship, but interestingly enough, for longevity and long-term health too.
Its good to voice your emotions.
In the book, you say its a myth that a conflict is a problem to be solved.
JULIE:Heres the story: People have different brains.
Well, its so wrong.
We have different experiences.
Even if we come from identical cultures, we still are very, very different in our own history.
So what happens with conflicts that are based on lifestyle preference differences?
Well, they just keep coming up over and over and over again, like we mentioned before.
And even then its not going to work, because you’ll be bored out of your mind.
You cant really solve or change them.
Thats the story of that.
Canor shouldyou ever venture to change parts of who your partner is at their core?
JULIE:I also think that people do change.
I’m a neat freak, and suffice it to say, John is not.
Hepoor sweethearthas had to put up with my saying, Clean that up!
It used to take maybe six times to ask him to clean something up.
Now we’re down to about threeyay!
Hes going to want to go practice violin.
And I don’t blame him.
So he has changed, no question about it.
JOHN:And you have too.
JULIE:Ive changed too, to be more patient, to be more acceptingaccept popcorn on the couch.
JOHN:That’s our latest conflict.
JULIE:Oh, man.
You just have to laugh at it.
But both people can change.
And that goes back to the game theory.
My final questionhave you seen any of the TikTok videos that have gone viral about bidding?
They were really fun.
So, turning toward is incredibly important, as that really funny, warm, wonderful woman suggested.
